No Need To Ask with Amani Duncan
No Need To Ask with Amani Duncan
No Need to Ask Podcast "CEO Talk" with Madeline Nelson, CEO Heads Music
Welcome to No Need to Ask Podcast! My name is Amani Duncan and I will be your host on this journey.
I recently launched a new series for No Need to Ask entitled "CEO Talk". On this episode, I have the pleasure of speaking to one of the music industry's greats - Madeline Nelson, CEO of Heads Music.
Madeline is a seasoned music executive with years of experience, ranging from her work as manager of R&B supergroup Blackstreet to her A&R work with Michael Jackson, Marketing work for J. Cole and current management of Wyclef Jean.
After holding the role of Senior Vice President of A&R / Artist Relations across all 3 of the Major labels at Sony Music, where she served as a direct report to CEO Doug Morris, Madeline shifted back to artist management and also founded an indie label staffed entirely by Women. The experience at such a high level at Sony Music gave her a keen understanding of what products should go to market and best practices for organic entry of those products. It also fueled her determination to work towards equality for Women in the music industry.
Madeline’s business is an independent, boutique-style music company based in New York City, that focuses on services within management, brand strategy, record label, and publishing.
Madeline firmly believes in exploring new technology as a strong way forward for the music business and embraces digital streaming services as an opportunity for artists to take more control of their careers and be paid more fairly.
Learn more about Madeline Nelson at www.headsmusic.com.
If you enjoy No Need to Ask podcast, please leave a review here: apple.co/3drgU57.
Thank you and until we meet again, be safe and be well.
Welcome to another episode of no need to ask podcast. My name is Amani Duncan, and I will be your host on this journey. So friends, I was thinking that maybe I should try something different with this interview, if it's so good. And I love the guests that will be joining us shortly. So I didn't want to edit the interview too much. So I decided why not do part one and part two. So part one will be a part of a new series that I am doing called CEO talk. And it's where I bring on the show and interview my friends, colleagues, dynamic individuals that are leaders in their various industries. They have risen to the very top of the corporate ladder as CEOs at their own companies or at companies that they work with on today's show. I have the extreme pleasure of interviewing one of my dearest friends, Madeline Nelson,
Speaker 2:Mountain tops, and bus stops at[inaudible].
Speaker 1:Katelyn Nelson is the CEO of heads music. It is female founded and female led. I remember the first time I met Madeline and it was actually at the 2019 MTV video music awards. We were in Newark for the first time, Newark New Jersey for the very first time and at the Prudential center. And so part of the live broadcast during the creative process, we wanted to highlight key artists that were from New Jersey. So of course it wouldn't be a perfect tribute without the multi hyphenated, amazing Grammy award winner Wyclef. So through some people I was able to connect with Madeline and we were able to bring this moment to life and pretty much the rest is history. She's been a tremendous ally for me, a true friend and someone that I believe everyone needs to know. So Madeline, welcome to no need to ask podcasts. Thank you so much, Amani. Wow. Thank you. I feel important. Well, you are important and never doubt that one. Madeline has just, you, you have just the most amazing career, like not only are you a tremendous mentor to so many, especially to me. Um, and I I've, I've learned so much through our experiences together and I'm so thankful to have you in my life, but you have this incredible career that I think everyone needs to know. So, I mean, you know, when I look at it, it's, you know, starts as off as a talent Booker for, you know, at the Apollo, you know, for Showtime at the Apollo, you went on to go into management with such big names at literally, you know, you shepherd in these incredible moments that changed the trajectory of, of, of certain artists. Um, you have major label experience at the most high level. Um, and you know, something I found out recently, which I was like, girl, why didn't you tell me about this? You know, working with Donna Karen rewind, we need to have a full discussion about this. And then obviously going on to starting, uh, the independent label heads music. So take us through, you know, I don't want to start at the very beginning, like Google her she's important. Um, but like, I want to talk about key moments in your journey that, um, where, you know, maybe something was challenging, um, that you had to work through and hopefully turned it into a positive and then, you know, those beautiful moments, those high moments that, um, really made you feel even more confirmed that you were on the right track, that the music industry being in the business of music was, you know, exactly where you need it to be.
Speaker 3:Wow. Okay. So I, you know what, I will start a little bit at the beginning. Um, when, when I was at his Showtime at the Apollo, um, you know, being, being a kid in Harlem, it's making it to the Apollo stage is kind of like the biggest deal, right? It's getting inside to see a show, just like a really big deal. Um, so when I was an intern there, I was an intern in the wardrobe department. And the only thing cool about that was like how much I loved fashion, how, like I was already as a kid, like a total slave to fashion. And, um, but the rest of it, I found out, like there was nothing, there's nothing glamorous about this. You know, we're like out picking up clothes, you're taking clothes back, you're getting dry clean before you take them back, addressing people, whatever. Um, and, and in the wardrobe department, one day I was calling around on the floor looking for like a button that I had been chastised. If I don't find it, my career was going to be ruined before it started. And, and, and I happened upon the boot of someone, someone was dating there and I like bumped into his boot almost with my head on the floor. And I looked up and there's this man. And he's like, who are you? I didn't know from Adam never saw him a day in my life. And I stood up and I said, Oh, I'm the person that's going to be the executive producer of show one day,
Speaker 1:Speak it into existence,
Speaker 3:Executive producer. And he just laughed. He laughed and he walked away. He didn't say anything else to meet and asked me my name. Then that's day. I was told that I was leaving the wardrobe department. I was going to be a PA can I just tell you, I thought that man is going to be somebody's personal assistant. I didn't know. There was such a thing as a production assistant. Um, but I was gonna be a production assistant and it didn't matter to me what the PA stood for. I was happy. I wasn't going to be calling on the floor and wardrobe anymore.
Speaker 1:Mmm.
Speaker 3:And I found out on my first day, that kind of, all it really meant was like going to get donuts and coffee and things like that. And I remember being very frustrated about all of these tasks and, and venting to mr. Sutton about my frustration and him saying to me, you've seen the script I'm writing. Yeah. You see, he was like naming all of the things that were going on, that all of the people were doing that I was getting the donuts and the coffee for. And I said, yeah. And he goes, so we want to get the coffee and the donuts, how would this get done? And what happened was that instilled something in me about the process and, and about hierarchy, not necessarily being all about position, but really like thing about understanding, like the roles and the team and how like each one elevate the other. Um, and that, that lesson opened my mind up about what all the possibilities were. If you could like understand all the players on the chess board, if that makes sense. I hope this is all making sense. And, um, and so when I opened my mind, I knew I was going to be so much more than a PA. I had never thought past even being the wardrobe assistant at that time is my point. I didn't think that I was going to be a senior vice president of anything. I knew how badly I wanted to be in music. That's why I was at Apollo. Um, but I knew understood then that if I could think like that person, if this person doesn't do this, then this person can't do this. And then this person, character, this, this person, or this, then I could be the leader of something owner of something, whatever. So like I never ever took my mind out of that space of, of I could be after that. It's like, I just have to understand that this is, this is how the world works. This is how it works.
Speaker 1:I mean, you were literally thinking already like an operations person.
Speaker 3:Yeah. But I didn't know that I didn't know what, what that was called. Um, but, but, and, and I, and I, I have no problem saying this. Um, through my therapist very recently will realize that's how I was thinking all along. Like we just started breaking down certain things that I've done across my career. And it all kept coming back to this lesson. And the, and the way I did things after that always were, were like, based on that same lesson. And so what happened at Showtime was I had to work with all the labels. And so when I was working with all the labels, then I started to understand the real master plan. Like you knew, started to understand marketing, promotion, publicity, all that.
Speaker 4:Cause you're talking to all these teams
Speaker 3:Members who have some kind of interest in getting this artist on the show and what happens past the show. And you start to understand like what, what it means to have certain jobs inside the labels. So then I could, I started to figure out what I was like, what, what my role could be in the music business. And it was ANR. That's what I believed at first it was ANR. Um, and, and so I booked black street art, Showtime at the Apollo. I booked two ads that the head Booker had said no to. And that was the Fujis and black street.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Wow. Okay.
Speaker 3:And the Fujis they said no, because the Fujis refused to come on. If they couldn't play their instruments, if they couldn't be a band and black street had a song called booty call, that was their single. Oh yeah. And Showtime's a family show. We couldn't have booty call on the show, but I went to the executive producer and I played him joy. Not at this time. I didn't know anybody in the foodies and I don't anybody in black street. Wow. I played in joy. And before I let you go, and he said, if they'll sing those songs, then they can come on the show. That was my introduction to black street. That is how I eventually ended up working with Jimmy Ivy and how I eventually ended up managing block street because I knew there was something so special about them that we shouldn't pass up having them on the show. And so then moving into that space where there was like Jimmy and there's like Teddy Riley. And they were like, trusting my instincts. And they were like, betting me, like, no, you're wrong. This is this thing. Well, this is a signal. I'll buy you a Mercedes. And then it would be the same, get the Mercedes.
Speaker 4:Oh.
Speaker 3:But so that, that, that like put me like heavy, heavy, heavy in the music space. And so for several years, that was my space. I worked with block street and it took us a couple of years to make black streets, his second album. So I was nowhere around for the first one, but the first one had done almost a million copies. And one thing Jimmy Ivy was betting on was that the second album, but take the first album over a million. And the second one, if it was as, even as good, not better, even as good as the first one was going to do even more. And he was right to the tune of like 10 million sales. Um, so we cut, we made the album and we covered a Beatles song. So now here's how this all in a times. So Michael Jackson was the owner of the Beatles catalog. Yes, indeed. During this timeframe, I also was working with Michael Jackson because Teddy was working with Michael Jackson and, and that relationship was one of the most beautiful ones I've ever had in my life. We like, we would compare books. We would give each other books read and come back and like give each other questionnaires on the books and things. He'd like, he was amazing, amazing human. So when we wanted to do a cover on that album of buy me, love, EMI said, we could never clear it. I mean, everybody, so we can never coach him. It's like, you can never clear it. I said, bet me a car, like a car. And I literally it's and it's not, I'm not bragging to say this, but I called Michael. I could like get on the phone and call Michael
Speaker 5:Such a boss move. And he
Speaker 3:I'll tell you this, you know, any day of the week, he'll tell the story. And like, like, it was nothing. He said, of course, anything for Teddy, anything. So he cleared it. So now we show up with a Beatles cover, but we had turned it into a ballot. If you remember the album, right. We made like a slow version of by me luck, which also by the way, they didn't want to clear because now it wasn't, wasn't a cover. It was an interpolation, right? Yeah. But at anyway, Jimmy Ivan was like, Holy shit, we have a Beatles song cleared. That's the first single man block street. We're like, no, it's not the first single is no diggity. Jimmy was like, Nope, it's fine. Me love that's what we're going with is find me love. So I gave some people, a warning at the label. And again, another story that, um, Teddy loves to tell him and would be happy to tell. And then I came back to the group and say, listen, we're going to have to go press these records out. Cause that's what we did back then. And ship it to radio ourselves. They don't think this is the single, but this is the single single. And that is how we don't want no diggity Single. It was less single. It was the thing that, that moment was a defining moment for me, because I knew, like I knew rump shaker was the single for in effect. When the Teddy's then manager was saying that's that's song is crashed that song as garbage. Yeah. I knew, like I had an instinct about music and musicians. Um, and so it made like, made me like just really have like a deep, deep, deep hunger to, to push artists, to like a winning place, to the real winning place. So like, even with, with that song with no dignity, I know in my entire soul, that was a song. So I'm like, okay, I'm going to do whatever I have to do. But then once the song comes out, there's so much more work to do. Right? Like all the work really starts once you like put it out there to the world and it's like, okay, how do we make sure people hear it? Where do we have to go? What, what do we have to do? Who do we call? We asked to play it, but do we have to kiss? What do we have? Yeah. Um, so, so that becomes the real work. And when we got into that, when I was managing this group in my twenties, pounding the pavement we did in stores back then getting on a bus and driving for days upon days to go do in stores and then going to tour and then going overseas and coming back and going overseas again, because it was going number one in this country and in this country, in this country. Right. When none of that felt overwhelming to me when it still felt exciting every day that I woke up, when it never, ever felt like a task, just like something I love. I was like, um, I'm in it. I honestly can't imagine doing anything else. I mean, I did eventually burn out and do something else for a little while, but it, it didn't ever feel like work as hard and it was hard. And especially back then.
Speaker 1:So I just want to pause for one second because you're just as always dropping such good information for our listeners. I want to just back up two steps and talk about the discovery process. So you, you mentioned that you just knew that it was instinctual. Um, was it just that, because you're talking about the untested and unproven, you know, in, in this, in black street, went on just to be, you know, as big as big can be. And same with the Fujis like, is it just instinct because I know you and I, you know, we've been in this music business for a long time and I get this question all the time and I'm not even an ANR. I just been a part intimately, a part of the discovery process. Um, and you know, you're way more closer to the creative process than I am. Is it really that simple? Is it really just that gut instinct? That is the draw is the decision maker.
Speaker 3:It is a money. And I would venture to say that most of the most successful folks in the business from Sylvia, Doug to those who know it from even like a second beat on a record will tell you, there's you get something in your stomach? Like, no, you know, when you hear it, you know, when you don't hear it and you know, when you hear it, right, right. It really is. It's instinct. It's instinct it's that cannot be taught. All, all the logistics can be taught, having, having an ear like that, can't nobody can teach you an ear like that. They can teach you all about music. They can teach you about sound. They can teach you about formula. That's going to work. And it does work. And we've seen that formulas can work for a long time, but there's this, this thing, this gut thing about certain songs. And I know it because I've got more than a few that are classic songs that are never, ever going away under my belt. So I know that that's what it is.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Everyone, all these aspiring creators out there take a good listen to this. There it cannot be taught. It can not be taught. No. Wow. So Madeline, like the story you just told everyone is just so incredible. It's, it's just about so many things. Having focus, being strategic. It reminds me of, you know, a bit of my journey, starting out as an intern and then, you know, becoming a CMO, you were the wardrobe person crawling on the floor, and now you're the, you know, founder and CEO of, of a major independent label. So, you know, I always stress to young people who, you know, want to go into the music industry, but I even stretch it beyond just the music industry. Just any industry. There is no magic button. There's no like light switch, you know, just like you say, the creative process, it's it can't be taught. It's instinctual either, you know, or you just don't know. Um, it really comes down to putting in the work, putting in the 10,000 hours, always being a student, humbling yourself.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's that, it's, it's really true. It's and you know, so for me, it's so fast forward to now I built my business by listening to young people. So you spoke on always being a student, right? Yes. So even after you do the work put in the time you pay your dues, you still want to stay
Speaker 1:[inaudible]
Speaker 3:And you're not going to stay in the thick of it and be successful unless you figure out how to surround yourself. Right. You got to surround yourself with people who maybe aren't the smarter people in the room. So it's okay. Not, I got no problem, not being the smartest person in the room. As long as I got some smart people in the room,
Speaker 1:You just hark, um, Madeline, what you just said made me think of our dear friend, dear departed friend, Chris lady, Chris would always say to me, Amani, I don't have all the answers and I don't need to have the, all the answers. Right. I just simply surround myself with brilliant minds and therefore I can never lose
Speaker 3:That's right. That's right. It's, there's nothing happening in new technology that one of the young people working with me, either, either that they don't know, or they can't figure out much faster than I can figure it out. Like I will ask the question and they will have the answer by the end of the status meeting, if nobody knew it at the beginning of the status meeting. And so that's important for it just for your growth is to like understand as you're, as you're moving through. All of these, uh, positions is that you, you never have to be that you don't have to be the smartest person in the room. It is okay to humble yourself. It is okay to be a student. You're going to be a student that will become a teacher that has to become a student. Again, you don't have a choice where we come to students. Again, something, some part of the business is going to change and you're going to have to play catch up, but there's going to be somebody younger that was involved in that change as it was happening, go find them, work with them, convince them to come work with you. You know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Absolutely. It's so smart. So I want to touch on something that just recently happened. Um, you recently just joined the board for the American association of independent music. I just it's huge. I mean, it's huge Madeline, you're so humble. Um, but it is huge. Tell us, like, what was the motivating factor for you to put yourself out there to, you know, be voted on and to possibly join this board? Like what, what does it mean
Speaker 3:To you being a part of this organization? Well, so this organization, lots of people don't understand what they do. You know, the biggest thing is advocacy. They, they advocate for, for independent labels and independent artists, um, for writers and producers, that is a really big deal. Cause there's nobody out there doing that aside from me too. I am, they're a nonprofit, they're an org. I don't think people realize that. I did not know that that's right. They, they aren't org. Um, and so the, the money they take in is what gets paid in for membership. And like maybe if they get a grant or something, but there's not like a big moneymaking agency or anything. So they're, they're basically, they're about advocacy. And then the other thing that I thought was so important, and this is the reason I joined is because they're about education. And so one, when I joined, I started being privy to all this information and better understanding of everything, how Spotify, the inner workings of Spotify and Amazon music and all these other things, um, how to get your relationship going with sound exchange, um, least copyright companies that I had never heard of other Indies. I'd never heard of, that we could be collaborating with. There was just so much information. I was almost overwhelmed by the information that I now was privy to when I became a member. Incredible. Um, and so at first I just wanted everybody know about them. Like, because what I noticed was there weren't a lot of black labels, not a lot of black labels, but what I also know is when we hear the term indie, we think of indie as a music genre. It is not a music genre. True. Honestly, independent music is just that it is independent music. And so I know that there needs to be a shift in thought process even about that. So when people think of that organization, they don't think it's an organization for a black indie label to join. They don't. So there's all these black labels that aren't members. I don't know the benefits that don't know the information they'd be privy to that don't know about how they advocate right now. They just one, they have been battling, uh, to be able to get independent labels, uh, to be able to chart on billboard in the top 100 hot, 101. Now it's for Indies that are distributed by a major. So my next fight is going to be, what about the Indies that aren't distributed through a major like mine, but we've got music that rightfully, could and should be on billboards 100. So, you know, that's next thing, but you gotta, you gotta be an inside agent. You gotta somethings have to be done from the inside out. Everything can't be done from the outside, like kicking and screaming and fighting. Sometimes you got to do the job from the inside. So those were the reasons I felt it was important to join. Uh, when it came to my attention that I could potentially run a campaign for the board. I learned that there was no black member on the board.
Speaker 1:Wow. 2022
Speaker 3:It and 20. Yeah. And what I love about the CEO of that organization is I brought it up and he got on the phone and called me and had a conversation with me about it. Incredible and action. How, how can you help to change this? Um, that meant a lot to me. And so then what I, what I did was I lit, I'm not kidding you. I found the LinkedIn contact for every single member of that organization. Everybody that is a member. I spent night after night, after night paying more money to get more inbox messages. And I inboxed every single member of him and said, hi, my name is Madeline. I'm a member I'm running. This is why you should vote for me. Incredible. I swear to you, it was, it was funny. The, some of the messages I got back were really funny. Like people were like, this is definitely gonna vote for you.
Speaker 1:Yes. Fortune favors the bold. Absolutely.
Speaker 3:Because what I realized because I was the only black person running. So not only no black people on the board, but I was the only black person running and the board seats go for three years, you have it for three years.
Speaker 1:Understood. So
Speaker 3:It became very important to me to, to get the seat. And I'd said, I'm not going to get it. If I don't do the work, I have exactly the work I have to sit here. I have to write. And I wasn't just copying and pasting. I had to write a personal message to each person. I had to like, say something about their company. Like I see who you are, here's who I am. Right. This is why you should vote for me. And it was meaningful to enough people that they, they did in an organization that had never voted a black person onto the board. And by the way, I don't know if a black person has ever run for the board.
Speaker 1:That's, you know, I just want to dig a little bit into that. So, you know, you said with this amazing organization, the awareness about what they do. I mean, the fact that I didn't even know they were a nonprofit. Um, so it just feels like they're deficient not only in promoting themselves and getting the word out there, but then also deficient in diversity.
Speaker 3:Well, and, and, and that's, they're not afraid to have that conversation again. That's what I like about them. Um, the CEO, his name is Richard and he, Richard Burdis is his name. And, and so the conversations, cause now we've had several, he's made sure that we've had several are about just that. How, how do we bring that diversity? And, and he has been tackling it. And this is what I like. He didn't start tackling it a couple of months ago. He's been tackling it. He's trying, he's been asking people, um, he's been having these calls, he's he hasn't had anyone on the board, um, that, that he can have these conversations with, that can actually like call things to action and board meetings and things like that. And you know, I'm going to, without a doubt, without a doubt. So it's what I like about him is that it's not new for him to, to be trying. And, and you're right though, it's a big part of it is his marketing and promoting the organization in a certain way. And you don't know what you don't know. Right. He knows all about me. He doesn't have it out there. I didn't know any of the, of the black owned indie labels that were out there. I just, I had to make it my business to find out who they are. And so that's what we have to do at, at H and M. We have to go after them and we have to explain to them, this is the benefit of being part of this organization, because I'm very lucky to have you. They need your voice, they need your power. They need your direction because this shouldn't be this best kept secret. Right. And I know with you on the board, you will definitely amplify. We go talk about it. So
Speaker 2:[inaudible] memories to say hurt my eyes. But my T shirt says this Sandra bland was here,
Speaker 3:Madeline. So your company is called heads music. That's H E a D S music. Yes. Please tell us, how did you come up with such a unique name? Um, so when I started, my indie has had, was not the name. It was when I started working with like clef, uh, that we came up with this name, but the name heads, uh, because we wanted a name that described the definition of sound, what defines sound. So H harmonics is the science of sound, right? So harmonics engineering and art defining sound that what heads stands
Speaker 1:For it actually is an acronym for something incredible. Yeah. I mean, it just, the creativity pours out of you and it's just, it's brilliant. It's simply brilliant. And I could not be more proud of you, you know, as always Madeline, thank you for sharing and being so authentic as you always are. I'd love to hear your stories. And every time you tell a story, I learned even more. I'm sitting here. Like I thought I knew everything, but it's just like, I always find out some new discovery. So everyone thank you for tuning into part one and be safe and be well, thank you, Madeline. Thank you.
Speaker 2:They aren't shown them bond. Like murder was so natural. Everybody was safe, everybody.